Seems that our previous discussion about the racket throwing collegians has percipitated quite a lively discussion on the blog. (Be sure to read the previous comments.)As of this afternoon, I had heard from Bruce Avery (National Coordinator of Instructors) and Joe Buys, and both of them said it would be a two point penalty on the #1 doubles match since the offenders' match was over and they are then treated as two individuals.
Personally, I gravitated toward their response as did most of you, but then I received this email from Joyce Grant this afternoon:
"Randy,
I talked to two coaches today who are on the ITA Rules Committee. Their interpretation of the rules is that it would be two separate instances for the two doubles partners and a game penalty would be assessed and carried over.
They said they really had not thought how this rule might play out and would seek clarification Dec. 09 when they meet again. These are the coaches who make these rules.
Perhaps you might want to share this info via blog.
Joyce"
Now if that doesn't just beat all! Let's hear what you all think...
17 comments:
Here is Bruce Avery's response:
Once the match is over, the players are treated as individuals. The answer now is clear.
Here is Joe Buys' comment:
The only thing that I would add to Bruce's comments is that it would depend on whether the doubles point has been decided. Since this was the second match finished. The doubles point may have been decided. In this case, it would be 1 point on each of their singles matches. If the doubles score was now 1-1 then in would be the two points to the doubles match still is progress.
In my opinion after the match is completed, they are no longer a team and therefore it is individual carryovers.
>>I talked to two coaches today who are on the ITA Rules Committee. Their interpretation of the rules is that it would be two separate instances for the two doubles partners and a game penalty would be assessed and carried over.<<<
Their interpertation depends on the day; and it would be different every day of the week.
How many new ITA rules over the years have come out and then been rescinded or changed before the season is half-over???
A few coaches push a new rule in while everybody is having drinks and when they raise their hand for a vote everybody thinks they are voting for 'drinks on the house.'
I have done 6 duals so far this year and I haven't had a coach yet who knew they only get 1 injury time-out per match.
...They said they really had not thought how this rule might play out and would seek clarification Dec. 09 when they meet again. These are the coaches who make these rules.....
Yeah, and the season is over in May. That's a big help.
No wonder the new ITA rules never make the FAC; they meet in December.
What the hell is Joyce doing officiating collegiate tennis if she doesn't know the rules. It would appear she is the female version to Herb Taylor. Make up your own rules as you go.
I was watching the Dallas Challenger this week and could'nt believe what I was seeing. Donald Young refused to stand for the National Anthem and then started getting booed by the few spectators watching. Later in the week, two players broke their rackets during the same match and NO code was given. One player broke the racket across his leg and the other threw his racket up into the rafters raining crap all over the court. Later in the match, he finished it off when he knew he was about to lose the match. What kind of chair officials do we have out there that don't have the balls to assess code violations, especially flagrant ones. The line umpires weren't much better. Has anybody ever trained them on how to call obvious out serves. Again, the incompetence of the chair officials came through with flying colors when they refused to overrule such flagrant mistakes. I only hope they are not using local officials. If so, you folks in Dallas have big problems. I've never seen such a collective group of inept officials in my life. I was sitting in the stands and the spectators were laughing about how bad they looked on court. I only hope they weren't getting paid because they definitely did not deserve it. Does anybody else have a similar observation?
Just got an update from Joyce Grant...
She said that she had heard from Jane Goodman and her ruling was:
One point penalty on the #1 doubles match since it was a "simultaneous" code violation.
Who the hell is Jane Goodman. She apparently doesn't fully understand ITA rules if her position that only ONE code should be given since two violations occurred simultaneously. Maybe some of the collegiate teams will get word of this new ruling. It would be hilarious to see all players on the team commit a flagrant code violation simultaneously. If Joyce was there, I'm sure she would have said "I didn't see a thing". Is this was offiicating has become?
I did a word serve under ITA Rules. Nowhere is the word "simultaneous" mentioned.
So who's right, Goodman, Buys or Avery? Oh, and who's Goodman?
The greatest minds in men's ITA tennis; i.e. Myron Krueger, Jim Lawson, and myself all agree that it should be a two point penalty on the line #1 doubles. This is because the match was over so whatever they did was done individually.
I hope you all appreciate the quick response from the think tank.
(For those of you who take this comment seriously, please don't. The ruling is correct but remember there is satire in the comment.)
Jane Goodman is considered by some to be the guru of ITA tennis. That opinion however is not shared by all.
Beauty tends to be in the eye of the beholder.
Always remember that the ITA rules are written by the ITA coaches themselves.
I will leave whatever conclusions you draw from that fact to your own imaginations.
((She said that she had heard from Jane Goodman and her ruling was:
One point penalty on the #1 doubles match since it was a "simultaneous" code violation)).
So does this mean that if the Doubles Point had been decided, Jane's ruling would be the same??
So, if that's the case, then WHO gets the carryover Point Penalty assigned to their singles match?? Player 1 or Player 2.
Let's see how they wiggle out of this one!!
That would be a simple one to figure out Wally - Based on Jane Goodman's interpretation, the code would HAVE to go against the highest singles player in the lineup that incurred the most inopportune carry over ...
haha....
Oh my God!!!!!
JEALOUS!!!!!!!!!
When I read this blog I can only see jealous officials who have not made it into the professional line team and are just relegated to working local junior events or ITA (and just hate it) and have nothing better to do but to critize professional chair and line umpires. Let me make it VERY CLEAR that I have nothing against hard working local, and ITA officials who enjoy doing such a wonderful job. They are there to teach the children and college students the rules of the sport. They are the role models for the upcoming generation of tennis players.
As to the individual who speaks so blatantly about the Dallas Challenger I would like to see his or her performance as a line or chair umpire for that matter.
First, you CAN NOT tell if a ball is just in or just out when you see it from the angles were the cameras were at (I also watched it online), but if you are so good that you can tell 100% that a ball is in or out by just looking at the video then let me tell you friend, that you need to contact the ITF and ask them to give you a Gold Badge right away, don't even go through the process of going to the various schools and being evaluated to become the best chair umpire in the world). Second, you can not hear if a chair umpire gave a code violation or not while watching the matches.
I take it this blog is dedicated to officials who have nothing better to do than to critize other officials probably because they are not good enough on court, have no common sense and have nothing better to do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These people are certainly jealous of those who actually make it to the BIG LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!! So instead of just critizing professional umpires come out and work some events and see if you are worthy to be called a tennis official....
Being an official is a wonderful way to be involved in a great sport like tennis so I would hope that next time someone writes something against an official, being a professional or a local, ITA official; that you put yourself in their shoes and actually think why and or why not things are done or not done.
I used to work professional events before I got pushed out because I was too old, YOU IDIOT. And yes, I fully understand what makes a good line and chair umpire. And they WERE NOT to be found at the Dallas Challenger. The only question I have is - WHY NOT???????
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